This is amazing. You have far more knowledge of Chinese administrative structure than a normal Chinese citizen. Those things are only slightly touched by textbook, but more comprehensive and instructive. I need to bookmark this article for future reference.
Wow, amazing. I am a Chinese language learner, and I would like to add that posts like this one are incredibly helpful as they add a layer of understanding that many foreigners barely ever grasp.
Thanks, David. I will be directing my students here.
Queries/comments...
Why 'H,' not 'X,' in Da H/Xingan Ling?
On, Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps (XPCC, 兵团), an important one-liner even at this level of detail is that all administrative units in the XPCC are artificially elevated by one level.
"H" and not “X” is probably a nod to the pronunication in a local lanuage (Mongolian?) if I had to guess. There's no "Hin" phoneme in Mandarin, so "Xin" becomes the stand-in.
This is pretty common in ethnic minority regions, sometimes with huge disparities (e.g., Ngawa Autonomous Prefecture in Sichuan gets turned into 阿坝自治州 in Mandarin, which is pronounced "A Ba").
My guess is, however "Ngawa" is pronounced in the local language must lack an equivalent Mandarin phoneme, or perhaps it sounds *vaguely* similar to "A Ba".
When you say XPCC units are elevated by one level, do you mean administratively? That's what I was trying to get at with categorizing them as sub-prefecture entities, although I don't believe there's any formal declaration describing them as such.
Wow, this is pretty cool. I will definitely be saving this for reference. I have basically zero knowledge of Chinese, uh, I don't even know what this is called- administrative area naming conventions, I guess, but there's probably a real term for it, right? Stumbling into it like this felt a little Tolkien-esque, only of course it's real and not the product of one person's imagination; that analogy may not work for everyone (anyone?), but it's a comment on the scope and detail involved. I appreciate the work that must have gone into this.
I think I get what you mean - it's kind of like a detailed world-building exercise for a fantasy world (with the notable caveat that the world we're describing here is a real place).
On "ethnic districts" what I've been able to gather is that the only difference between them and divisions at the same level is that the head of the ethnic district must be chosen from amongst the titular ethnic group of the district. Given how small of a percentage some of these groups make up even in these so designated districts, god only knows how much that rule is enforced. I have no idea.
David, I still don't get how sub-provincial and sub-prefecture divisions are functionally different from cities of those levels. And from an American perspective, the "ranking" of its official doesn't really make sense, either. Is literally the only difference that they are seen as more important within the party system than equivalent cities? Or is there functional differences, such as certain department heads not being under the jurisdiction of their corresponding provincial department heads and thus interacting directly with the national government like the Municipalities?
Hey Greg - the sub-provincial and sub-prefecture divisions are are administratively organized at the same level as other cities at those levels. Fuctionally, the only difference I could find described was that sub-provincial cities have more "economic planning autonomy" than cities at a similar level that are NOT sub-provincial cities. I'm unfortunately not privy to the details that would tell us what that actually means in practice...
As for the civil servant ranking level, perhaps you're familiar with the General Schedule (GS) pay schedule used by the US Government? There are 15 levels in the GS, corresponding to certain levels of seniority (and pay level of course). It's not exactly the same as that, but somewhat similar...an internal seniority/hierarchy system that determines how far along you are in your career progression as a civil servant, with local/municipal level at the bottom, and the Premier of the country at the top (and everyone else somewhere in the middle).
So in the case of the sub-prefeture level cities, it almost seems a case of the tail wagging the dog...they are sub-prefecture because their mayor/party secretary are cadres more advanced in their careers, not because the city itself is any different.
Thanks. I imagine in that last paragraph you mean sub-provincial levels cities, though, it seems that that is also true for sub-prefecture level cities.
BTW, do you know what the "Diqu" (Area) township-level division is in Beijing? I've been told Diqu is a very general term, but in Beijing it appears to have a very specific administrative meaning, but I've been unable to find any papers on it. It appears that perhaps it's just an office dispatched from the District(?) or Municipality-level(?) meant to develop Towns and Townships into Subdistricts, and not really an upgrade or new administrative division. I guess the function they must serve is that the Diqu office must be able to bypass District administration for certain taskes/compentcies, and go straight to the municipal level, but that's just a guess.
It'd be nice to have some kind of official source on this to see how successful this has been.
Oh man, I keep finding new oddities that I missed in this. Hopefully I don't find enough to have to do a Part 3...
According to the Wikipedia page on this 地区办事处 thing, it's a Beijing speciality used to help transition rural towns and townships into sub-districts. It exists in parallel with the pre-existing town/township structure. I don't think it has any extra administrative staff or departments. But I'd have to dig more to be sure of that. As for their purpose...probably the best source would be to find someone who works there? (good luck lol)
Anyway, it looks like they're slowly going away...
Ironically, the Wikipedia page about them has way more info than the Baidu Baike page...
Nice stuff. Thanks! I was struggling with these oddities myself when I was trying to understand what does the Shennongjia Forestry District mean and how much is it related to UNESCO ? (not much). Also noticed that there are regular changes and merges and even after I understand divisions of a place like Hangzhou, it still can change and new districts like Linping or Hangzhou Qiantang New Area are created with no historical meanings. I guess there will be a lot more to come when less urbanised areas will start to follow Hangzhou and start creating new development areas (to make prestigious posts for new cadres maybe?).
Man, you are a beast, and thanks for telling me things I don’t even know. That Kunshan being a sub-prefecture level thing really got me.
This is amazing. You have far more knowledge of Chinese administrative structure than a normal Chinese citizen. Those things are only slightly touched by textbook, but more comprehensive and instructive. I need to bookmark this article for future reference.
Wow, amazing. I am a Chinese language learner, and I would like to add that posts like this one are incredibly helpful as they add a layer of understanding that many foreigners barely ever grasp.
Thanks, David. I will be directing my students here.
Queries/comments...
Why 'H,' not 'X,' in Da H/Xingan Ling?
On, Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps (XPCC, 兵团), an important one-liner even at this level of detail is that all administrative units in the XPCC are artificially elevated by one level.
Hi Tom, sorry for the late reply - just saw this.
"H" and not “X” is probably a nod to the pronunication in a local lanuage (Mongolian?) if I had to guess. There's no "Hin" phoneme in Mandarin, so "Xin" becomes the stand-in.
This is pretty common in ethnic minority regions, sometimes with huge disparities (e.g., Ngawa Autonomous Prefecture in Sichuan gets turned into 阿坝自治州 in Mandarin, which is pronounced "A Ba").
My guess is, however "Ngawa" is pronounced in the local language must lack an equivalent Mandarin phoneme, or perhaps it sounds *vaguely* similar to "A Ba".
When you say XPCC units are elevated by one level, do you mean administratively? That's what I was trying to get at with categorizing them as sub-prefecture entities, although I don't believe there's any formal declaration describing them as such.
Just terrific work. 🙌
Wow, this is pretty cool. I will definitely be saving this for reference. I have basically zero knowledge of Chinese, uh, I don't even know what this is called- administrative area naming conventions, I guess, but there's probably a real term for it, right? Stumbling into it like this felt a little Tolkien-esque, only of course it's real and not the product of one person's imagination; that analogy may not work for everyone (anyone?), but it's a comment on the scope and detail involved. I appreciate the work that must have gone into this.
I think I get what you mean - it's kind of like a detailed world-building exercise for a fantasy world (with the notable caveat that the world we're describing here is a real place).
On "ethnic districts" what I've been able to gather is that the only difference between them and divisions at the same level is that the head of the ethnic district must be chosen from amongst the titular ethnic group of the district. Given how small of a percentage some of these groups make up even in these so designated districts, god only knows how much that rule is enforced. I have no idea.
David, I still don't get how sub-provincial and sub-prefecture divisions are functionally different from cities of those levels. And from an American perspective, the "ranking" of its official doesn't really make sense, either. Is literally the only difference that they are seen as more important within the party system than equivalent cities? Or is there functional differences, such as certain department heads not being under the jurisdiction of their corresponding provincial department heads and thus interacting directly with the national government like the Municipalities?
Hey Greg - the sub-provincial and sub-prefecture divisions are are administratively organized at the same level as other cities at those levels. Fuctionally, the only difference I could find described was that sub-provincial cities have more "economic planning autonomy" than cities at a similar level that are NOT sub-provincial cities. I'm unfortunately not privy to the details that would tell us what that actually means in practice...
As for the civil servant ranking level, perhaps you're familiar with the General Schedule (GS) pay schedule used by the US Government? There are 15 levels in the GS, corresponding to certain levels of seniority (and pay level of course). It's not exactly the same as that, but somewhat similar...an internal seniority/hierarchy system that determines how far along you are in your career progression as a civil servant, with local/municipal level at the bottom, and the Premier of the country at the top (and everyone else somewhere in the middle).
So in the case of the sub-prefeture level cities, it almost seems a case of the tail wagging the dog...they are sub-prefecture because their mayor/party secretary are cadres more advanced in their careers, not because the city itself is any different.
Thanks. I imagine in that last paragraph you mean sub-provincial levels cities, though, it seems that that is also true for sub-prefecture level cities.
BTW, do you know what the "Diqu" (Area) township-level division is in Beijing? I've been told Diqu is a very general term, but in Beijing it appears to have a very specific administrative meaning, but I've been unable to find any papers on it. It appears that perhaps it's just an office dispatched from the District(?) or Municipality-level(?) meant to develop Towns and Townships into Subdistricts, and not really an upgrade or new administrative division. I guess the function they must serve is that the Diqu office must be able to bypass District administration for certain taskes/compentcies, and go straight to the municipal level, but that's just a guess.
It'd be nice to have some kind of official source on this to see how successful this has been.
Oh man, I keep finding new oddities that I missed in this. Hopefully I don't find enough to have to do a Part 3...
According to the Wikipedia page on this 地区办事处 thing, it's a Beijing speciality used to help transition rural towns and townships into sub-districts. It exists in parallel with the pre-existing town/township structure. I don't think it has any extra administrative staff or departments. But I'd have to dig more to be sure of that. As for their purpose...probably the best source would be to find someone who works there? (good luck lol)
Anyway, it looks like they're slowly going away...
Ironically, the Wikipedia page about them has way more info than the Baidu Baike page...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_(Beijing)
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%B0%E5%8C%BA%E5%8A%9E%E4%BA%8B%E5%A4%84
Yes, I'd seen the wiki page, and unfortunately, it doesn't have any great citations to explain what they are or how they work.
Nice stuff. Thanks! I was struggling with these oddities myself when I was trying to understand what does the Shennongjia Forestry District mean and how much is it related to UNESCO ? (not much). Also noticed that there are regular changes and merges and even after I understand divisions of a place like Hangzhou, it still can change and new districts like Linping or Hangzhou Qiantang New Area are created with no historical meanings. I guess there will be a lot more to come when less urbanised areas will start to follow Hangzhou and start creating new development areas (to make prestigious posts for new cadres maybe?).